I said I wouldn't do this, BUT...
I'll start off by saying Matthew is doing great!!! It's amazing how big he is getting and how much he is doing now. He's still not scooting or any form of transportation, but he mocks noises now. It's awesome having a child.
Now, I'll get to the meat and bones of the post. I said I was going to take my hat out of the ring when it comes to blogging about religion, but I want to find something out. I want to know what other people think. Granted I think only one person reads this (but I appreciate your reading). I want to know if I am wrong in my thinking that you should dress up for church. Not necessarily in a suit and tie, but in something respectable other than shorts. If all you own is a pair of shorts, by all means wear shorts (but if you own a computer, I'm pretty sure you have some long pants laying around somewhere). I don't think I'm off with my beliefs, but please let me know what you think...
This all stems from a comment from another blog at Fide-O. It was about music in church, then this was said...
(I'm in red, and Brian is in green)
St. Brianstine said...
God has set no standards for music. What are you talking about?
You can worship God using any tune or instrument or sound. Rock and Country included. Randy Travis is a Christian "country" music singer. And there are a plethera of Christian rock bands. And most of the time I wear flip-flops and shorts to church. God isn't concerned with what we look like per se, but with where our heart is at. You shouldn't make such bold claims and put them forth as gospel. That is what the Pharisees did...
To which I replied...
Pastor Jim said...
"In the Old Testament, God commanded Jewish worshippers that musical instruments were to be used, and when and where - God was specific (see II Chron. 29:25-28). Likewise, God has commanded, in the New Testament, the kind of music He wishes in modern Christian worship, and that is singing. Col. 3:16 reads, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with gladness in your hearts to the Lord." Similarly, Ephesians 5:19 instructs, "speaking to yourselves -in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord . . ." Other specific instruction, or examples, are recorded in Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9, Heb. 2:12, I Cor. 14:15, and James 5:13. Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded."
This is a quote from a site I read (I'll get back to you on what site, I lost it). As far as wearing flip-flops and shorts to church, thats a whole other issue on respect or lack of respect.
Then the rest went as follows (except other commentors, which will explain some of the vague stuff)...
St. Brianstine said...
Flip flops thing= non-issue, nothing to do with respect. Are you serious? What do you think Jesus wore to "church"? SANDALS, SANDALS, SANDALS!
Where do you think the tradition of wearing nice clothes to church came from? Not the bible. No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..it's a construct of the great awakening. Poor people didn't have nice stuff to wear to church. God is not concerned with shoes or flip flops. Jesus and all of his disciples had dirty feet...Does the bible say anywhere that if you wear flip flops to church you are disrespectful....NO! So I guess Jesus had a lack of respect? And Paul, Peter, etc.? God doesn't care. Using your own logic, if God doesn't command wearing nice shoes to church, it is excluded. And nowhere does he command it, anywhere. Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?
Also, the comment "Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded." is very fallacious. Just because something isn't mentioned or commanded by God, doesn't mean that it should be excluded. That's a non-sequitir.
Pastor Jim said...
"...When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded."
I do NOT agree with this part of the quote. I wanted to include it so someone wouldn't say I excluded it. I should have made it clear in the original comment. I believe though, it is safer to do as God instructed, instead of HOPING what we are doing is OK for Him. I hold nothing against people who use musical instruments in church, I am just more comfortable without them. I also like the sound of a capella music better.
"Poor people didn't have nice stuff to wear to church."
I didn't grow up rich, nor am I rich now...but Mom and Dad made sure I was wearing my "Sunday's Best" every time I stepped or was carried into church. As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James...that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that.
"Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?"
Are you homeless, Brianstein??? Does the homeless man have a choice? Do you? When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? Maybe if you work at a surf shop, I guess. Do you think God is not owed the same respect? If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? I don't think it gets any more important than God's House! I'm sure He appreciates the fact that you can't take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him. Do you shower or bath before you go to church? Why? Do you comb your hair? Do you just wear a hat? Why?
I'm sorry I'm making a big deal out of the "flip-flops and shorts" thing, but if someone can't see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me! To me, it says a lot about someone's character.
St. Brianstine said...
PASTOR JIM YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:4 ESV)
"I do NOT agree with this part of the quote..."
= Good. Point proven
"As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James...that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that."
= So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?
"When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= This is a red herring.
"...Do you think God is not owed the same respect?"
=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah....NOWHERE.
"If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here.
"I'm sure He appreciates the fact that you can't take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him..."
= Don't be so asinine. Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD? God is concerned with our hearts, not our appearance. Who the heck are you to say I am not presentable? You have never seen me. And I think flip flops are fine. So do many millions of Christians and you know who else does? JESUS DOES. Don't take something that is a personal conviction for you and force it on everyone as if it is an imperative in scripture. And again, Jesus wore sandals!
"Do you shower or bath before you go to church?"
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE.
"Do you comb your hair?"
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can't see Jesus ever combing his hair.
"Do you just wear a hat? Why?"
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, "What not to Wear"?
"I'm sorry I'm making a big deal out of the "flip-flops and shorts" thing,..."
= We all are...
"...but if someone can't see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me!"
=It's mind blowing to me how you cite no scripture to support what you think! It may be disrespectful to you but not everyone else. You can wear a suit, I don't care. I'll wear sandals like Jesus did. He doesn't care. THERE ISN"T ONE PLACE IN SCRIPTURE THAT TELLS US (MEN) HOW TO DRESS (except some verses in the gospels that say (in a parabe specific to that parable) to "dress properly" in which your definition of properly and mine are different...and...what about this, I forgot: "And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me."(Act 12:8 ESV) Peter is disrespectful...and the angel told him to do it! (wink).
"...To me, it says a lot about someone's character."
= Meaning? I have no character if I wear sandals to church like Jesus wore? Who do you think you are? I can't believe you are serious. Is this a joke? Where's the camera? Am I on TV? Where's the biblical support? "(Joh 7:24 ESV) Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
You need to stop playing fashion police and focus on Christ himself (who wore sandals).
This passage would serve you well:
“Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Mat 15:1-9 ESV)
If you want to wear a suit, fine, go for it, I don't care. But don't push that conviction of yours on everyone else:
Pastor Jim said...
"So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?"
I don't think I need to give you a history lesson on shoes, do I?
"When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= This is a red herring."
Why is this a red herring?
"=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah....NOWHERE."
Where in the Bible does it say that I can't bring a cot into church and sleep during the services?
"If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here."
I know a lot of So-Cal boys and they have more respect than that. If Arnold Schwartzenegger invited you to his house, you would wear flip-flops and a t-shirt? When one of my "So-Cal" boys went and showed me pictures, I didn't see any flip-flops and/or t-shirts. Maybe they are not "real" So-Cal boys, huh?
"Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD?"
I seem to remember you getting uptight about a quote I originally had on here about if it is not in the Bible then it is wrong. You seem to have to opposite view. If it is not in the Bible then it must be right. Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to wear just a thong to church!!! SHOW ME!!! Oh, that's right, its not in the Bible. So, I must able to just wear a thong to church, right??? Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to take a portable tv with an earphone to church so I won't miss the Chargers game!!! SHOW ME!!! Its not in the Bible, so I must be able to do it.
Just because something is not spelled out word for word in the Bible doesn't mean we can act ignorant about it. Its a little thing called common sense.
"Do you shower or bath before you go to church?"
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE."
Show me your Biblical proof.
"Do you comb your hair?"
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can't see Jesus ever combing his hair."
Again, you want my proof, where is yours?
"Do you just wear a hat? Why?"
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, "What not to Wear"?
So, you wear your hat for religous reasons, like Jews??? "Jesus probably wore a hat"? Again, show me your proof.
And again, about your other comments on people of the 1st century putting on their sandals...I'm not going to give you a history lesson on shoes!!! I think (hope) you are intelligent enough to figure this one out for yourself. This is one of the things I don't like about discussing religion on line. People just want to be right. They don't care about God, they just want to prove themselves right, no matter what. This is a perfect example of that. You want to argue with me that you can wear flip-flops to church because God wore sandals!?!? Duh, yes God wore sandals!!! What else was He to wear??? He also had nails driven through His body, does this give you proof that piercing is ok???
Dad said the following comment...
"Let's see - who wears really nice Armani suits? Mob bosses do. Hit men do. Drug dealers do. Enron executives do. Benny Hinn does. I see now how nice suits honor God."
Dad, were these suits worn in church? I think your missing the point here. The suits don't honor God. What honors God is the fact that you choose something respectable out of your closet to wear to His house instead of grabbing a pair of shorts. The fact is that you have to make a conscious effort to grab those shorts instead of a nice pair of slacks to worship God.
Me too, Scott, but I don't think I've ever been in a store that sells Armani!
St. Brianstine said...
So "Pastor" Jim, you worship God with your pants, I'll worship God with my heart...
St. Brianstine said...
Also, God's "house" is your heart, not a building. Do you shower in your suit?
Pastor Jim said...
Brian, NO ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS??? God is physically present when we meet together to praise him, Brian. Is he physically present in your shower??? That's right, it doesn't say He is not in the Bible, so it must be true.
Lance, I respect how you bowed out of this slinging. I wish I had your control. This is a big reason the world is becoming what it is today. People just do not have respect anymore! Respect for themselves, respect for others, and especially no respect for God. Brian knows he is being disrespectful to God and the older generation in his church, but he doesn't care. It is an inconvenience for him. He is so much more comfortable in shorts and flip-flops than he is in a pair of khakis and some shoes that hide his toes. Who is God to inconvenience Brian?
Church Dog,
Thanks for the support (yes, I know it was sarcasm). Big weekend for LSU.
St. Brianstine said...
"Pastor" Jim, I never read the bible where it says to wear khakis and closed toed shoes. Where was that again? And FYI, the "older" generation in my church building loves me, we get along great, they see no disrespect. We all get along, flip flops and suit wearing folks. So you lied and made that up, again. Nobody in my church sees me as being disrespectful. So how am I being disrespectful again? Because I wear flip flops? I'm done with this childish conversation. You need to read the Word. Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble! And yes I am way more comfortable in flip flops than khakis, and its fine. Don't mkae things up that aren't in scripture and push them on me.
Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just "what you think"...I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?
Good luck with life.
~Brian
Pastor Jim said...
No Brian, I am not a pastor, nor is my name Jim. If you want scripture, try reading about the prodigal son. You keep telling me how Jesus wore sandals to church, first you must understand the status of the sandals during Jesus' time. They were a sign of dignity and wealth. Slaves were not allowed to wear sandals. So, when you said, "No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..", you should have researched what you were talking about. Sandals were the "Armani suits" back then. Clean feet were very important in those days (do you need scriptures?). People used to work barefoot so they would not wear out their sandals, so they could wear them to important events....like church.
"Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just "what you think"...I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?"
Maybe you should quit trying to find loopholes in the Bible to make it fit into your life, instead of your life fitting into Jesus' life. As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, "do not wear shorts to church." It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it.
"Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble!"
You got that right, unfortunately.
So, Brian, do I think you are a bad guy? No! Do I think you hate God? No! Do I think you are misguided? Yes! Although you never answered any of my questions, I answered all of yours. What do you have to say about this? Do you not have answers for me, or do you realize that there is not a good answer for them? Are you so caught up with being "right" you can't see the forest for the trees? There have to be some occasions you dress up for, right? Why do you dress up for these occasions? Why doesn't God get atleast the same respect? I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm trying to help you see the error of your way. If you still do not get it, then so be it. I believe we were told to wipe the dust from our "sandals" and move on, right?
St. Brianstine said...
I see your POV now...you are just wrong. And this proves it:
"As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, "do not wear shorts to church." It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it."
So you admit, there are no verses that tell us about shorts or pants, or sandals or shoes. Therefore, everything else you say on the subject is your opinion, not a scriptural mandate. The arguement ends here. You need to realize your wrong and go buy some flip flops at Old Navy. I will not post anything further here on this sunject.
~Brian
Now, I'll get to the meat and bones of the post. I said I was going to take my hat out of the ring when it comes to blogging about religion, but I want to find something out. I want to know what other people think. Granted I think only one person reads this (but I appreciate your reading). I want to know if I am wrong in my thinking that you should dress up for church. Not necessarily in a suit and tie, but in something respectable other than shorts. If all you own is a pair of shorts, by all means wear shorts (but if you own a computer, I'm pretty sure you have some long pants laying around somewhere). I don't think I'm off with my beliefs, but please let me know what you think...
This all stems from a comment from another blog at Fide-O. It was about music in church, then this was said...
(I'm in red, and Brian is in green)
St. Brianstine said...
God has set no standards for music. What are you talking about?
You can worship God using any tune or instrument or sound. Rock and Country included. Randy Travis is a Christian "country" music singer. And there are a plethera of Christian rock bands. And most of the time I wear flip-flops and shorts to church. God isn't concerned with what we look like per se, but with where our heart is at. You shouldn't make such bold claims and put them forth as gospel. That is what the Pharisees did...
To which I replied...
Pastor Jim said...
"In the Old Testament, God commanded Jewish worshippers that musical instruments were to be used, and when and where - God was specific (see II Chron. 29:25-28). Likewise, God has commanded, in the New Testament, the kind of music He wishes in modern Christian worship, and that is singing. Col. 3:16 reads, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with gladness in your hearts to the Lord." Similarly, Ephesians 5:19 instructs, "speaking to yourselves -in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord . . ." Other specific instruction, or examples, are recorded in Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9, Heb. 2:12, I Cor. 14:15, and James 5:13. Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded."
This is a quote from a site I read (I'll get back to you on what site, I lost it). As far as wearing flip-flops and shorts to church, thats a whole other issue on respect or lack of respect.
Then the rest went as follows (except other commentors, which will explain some of the vague stuff)...
St. Brianstine said...
Flip flops thing= non-issue, nothing to do with respect. Are you serious? What do you think Jesus wore to "church"? SANDALS, SANDALS, SANDALS!
Where do you think the tradition of wearing nice clothes to church came from? Not the bible. No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..it's a construct of the great awakening. Poor people didn't have nice stuff to wear to church. God is not concerned with shoes or flip flops. Jesus and all of his disciples had dirty feet...Does the bible say anywhere that if you wear flip flops to church you are disrespectful....NO! So I guess Jesus had a lack of respect? And Paul, Peter, etc.? God doesn't care. Using your own logic, if God doesn't command wearing nice shoes to church, it is excluded. And nowhere does he command it, anywhere. Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?
Also, the comment "Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded." is very fallacious. Just because something isn't mentioned or commanded by God, doesn't mean that it should be excluded. That's a non-sequitir.
Pastor Jim said...
"...When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded."
I do NOT agree with this part of the quote. I wanted to include it so someone wouldn't say I excluded it. I should have made it clear in the original comment. I believe though, it is safer to do as God instructed, instead of HOPING what we are doing is OK for Him. I hold nothing against people who use musical instruments in church, I am just more comfortable without them. I also like the sound of a capella music better.
"Poor people didn't have nice stuff to wear to church."
I didn't grow up rich, nor am I rich now...but Mom and Dad made sure I was wearing my "Sunday's Best" every time I stepped or was carried into church. As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James...that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that.
"Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?"
Are you homeless, Brianstein??? Does the homeless man have a choice? Do you? When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? Maybe if you work at a surf shop, I guess. Do you think God is not owed the same respect? If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? I don't think it gets any more important than God's House! I'm sure He appreciates the fact that you can't take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him. Do you shower or bath before you go to church? Why? Do you comb your hair? Do you just wear a hat? Why?
I'm sorry I'm making a big deal out of the "flip-flops and shorts" thing, but if someone can't see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me! To me, it says a lot about someone's character.
St. Brianstine said...
PASTOR JIM YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:4 ESV)
"I do NOT agree with this part of the quote..."
= Good. Point proven
"As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James...that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that."
= So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?
"When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= This is a red herring.
"...Do you think God is not owed the same respect?"
=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah....NOWHERE.
"If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here.
"I'm sure He appreciates the fact that you can't take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him..."
= Don't be so asinine. Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD? God is concerned with our hearts, not our appearance. Who the heck are you to say I am not presentable? You have never seen me. And I think flip flops are fine. So do many millions of Christians and you know who else does? JESUS DOES. Don't take something that is a personal conviction for you and force it on everyone as if it is an imperative in scripture. And again, Jesus wore sandals!
"Do you shower or bath before you go to church?"
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE.
"Do you comb your hair?"
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can't see Jesus ever combing his hair.
"Do you just wear a hat? Why?"
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, "What not to Wear"?
"I'm sorry I'm making a big deal out of the "flip-flops and shorts" thing,..."
= We all are...
"...but if someone can't see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me!"
=It's mind blowing to me how you cite no scripture to support what you think! It may be disrespectful to you but not everyone else. You can wear a suit, I don't care. I'll wear sandals like Jesus did. He doesn't care. THERE ISN"T ONE PLACE IN SCRIPTURE THAT TELLS US (MEN) HOW TO DRESS (except some verses in the gospels that say (in a parabe specific to that parable) to "dress properly" in which your definition of properly and mine are different...and...what about this, I forgot: "And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me."(Act 12:8 ESV) Peter is disrespectful...and the angel told him to do it! (wink).
"...To me, it says a lot about someone's character."
= Meaning? I have no character if I wear sandals to church like Jesus wore? Who do you think you are? I can't believe you are serious. Is this a joke? Where's the camera? Am I on TV? Where's the biblical support? "(Joh 7:24 ESV) Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
You need to stop playing fashion police and focus on Christ himself (who wore sandals).
This passage would serve you well:
“Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Mat 15:1-9 ESV)
If you want to wear a suit, fine, go for it, I don't care. But don't push that conviction of yours on everyone else:
Pastor Jim said...
"So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?"
I don't think I need to give you a history lesson on shoes, do I?
"When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= This is a red herring."
Why is this a red herring?
"=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah....NOWHERE."
Where in the Bible does it say that I can't bring a cot into church and sleep during the services?
"If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?"
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here."
I know a lot of So-Cal boys and they have more respect than that. If Arnold Schwartzenegger invited you to his house, you would wear flip-flops and a t-shirt? When one of my "So-Cal" boys went and showed me pictures, I didn't see any flip-flops and/or t-shirts. Maybe they are not "real" So-Cal boys, huh?
"Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD?"
I seem to remember you getting uptight about a quote I originally had on here about if it is not in the Bible then it is wrong. You seem to have to opposite view. If it is not in the Bible then it must be right. Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to wear just a thong to church!!! SHOW ME!!! Oh, that's right, its not in the Bible. So, I must able to just wear a thong to church, right??? Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to take a portable tv with an earphone to church so I won't miss the Chargers game!!! SHOW ME!!! Its not in the Bible, so I must be able to do it.
Just because something is not spelled out word for word in the Bible doesn't mean we can act ignorant about it. Its a little thing called common sense.
"Do you shower or bath before you go to church?"
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE."
Show me your Biblical proof.
"Do you comb your hair?"
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can't see Jesus ever combing his hair."
Again, you want my proof, where is yours?
"Do you just wear a hat? Why?"
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, "What not to Wear"?
So, you wear your hat for religous reasons, like Jews??? "Jesus probably wore a hat"? Again, show me your proof.
And again, about your other comments on people of the 1st century putting on their sandals...I'm not going to give you a history lesson on shoes!!! I think (hope) you are intelligent enough to figure this one out for yourself. This is one of the things I don't like about discussing religion on line. People just want to be right. They don't care about God, they just want to prove themselves right, no matter what. This is a perfect example of that. You want to argue with me that you can wear flip-flops to church because God wore sandals!?!? Duh, yes God wore sandals!!! What else was He to wear??? He also had nails driven through His body, does this give you proof that piercing is ok???
Dad said the following comment...
"Let's see - who wears really nice Armani suits? Mob bosses do. Hit men do. Drug dealers do. Enron executives do. Benny Hinn does. I see now how nice suits honor God."
Dad, were these suits worn in church? I think your missing the point here. The suits don't honor God. What honors God is the fact that you choose something respectable out of your closet to wear to His house instead of grabbing a pair of shorts. The fact is that you have to make a conscious effort to grab those shorts instead of a nice pair of slacks to worship God.
Me too, Scott, but I don't think I've ever been in a store that sells Armani!
St. Brianstine said...
So "Pastor" Jim, you worship God with your pants, I'll worship God with my heart...
St. Brianstine said...
Also, God's "house" is your heart, not a building. Do you shower in your suit?
Pastor Jim said...
Brian, NO ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS??? God is physically present when we meet together to praise him, Brian. Is he physically present in your shower??? That's right, it doesn't say He is not in the Bible, so it must be true.
Lance, I respect how you bowed out of this slinging. I wish I had your control. This is a big reason the world is becoming what it is today. People just do not have respect anymore! Respect for themselves, respect for others, and especially no respect for God. Brian knows he is being disrespectful to God and the older generation in his church, but he doesn't care. It is an inconvenience for him. He is so much more comfortable in shorts and flip-flops than he is in a pair of khakis and some shoes that hide his toes. Who is God to inconvenience Brian?
Church Dog,
Thanks for the support (yes, I know it was sarcasm). Big weekend for LSU.
St. Brianstine said...
"Pastor" Jim, I never read the bible where it says to wear khakis and closed toed shoes. Where was that again? And FYI, the "older" generation in my church building loves me, we get along great, they see no disrespect. We all get along, flip flops and suit wearing folks. So you lied and made that up, again. Nobody in my church sees me as being disrespectful. So how am I being disrespectful again? Because I wear flip flops? I'm done with this childish conversation. You need to read the Word. Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble! And yes I am way more comfortable in flip flops than khakis, and its fine. Don't mkae things up that aren't in scripture and push them on me.
Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just "what you think"...I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?
Good luck with life.
~Brian
Pastor Jim said...
No Brian, I am not a pastor, nor is my name Jim. If you want scripture, try reading about the prodigal son. You keep telling me how Jesus wore sandals to church, first you must understand the status of the sandals during Jesus' time. They were a sign of dignity and wealth. Slaves were not allowed to wear sandals. So, when you said, "No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..", you should have researched what you were talking about. Sandals were the "Armani suits" back then. Clean feet were very important in those days (do you need scriptures?). People used to work barefoot so they would not wear out their sandals, so they could wear them to important events....like church.
"Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just "what you think"...I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?"
Maybe you should quit trying to find loopholes in the Bible to make it fit into your life, instead of your life fitting into Jesus' life. As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, "do not wear shorts to church." It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it.
"Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble!"
You got that right, unfortunately.
So, Brian, do I think you are a bad guy? No! Do I think you hate God? No! Do I think you are misguided? Yes! Although you never answered any of my questions, I answered all of yours. What do you have to say about this? Do you not have answers for me, or do you realize that there is not a good answer for them? Are you so caught up with being "right" you can't see the forest for the trees? There have to be some occasions you dress up for, right? Why do you dress up for these occasions? Why doesn't God get atleast the same respect? I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm trying to help you see the error of your way. If you still do not get it, then so be it. I believe we were told to wipe the dust from our "sandals" and move on, right?
St. Brianstine said...
I see your POV now...you are just wrong. And this proves it:
"As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, "do not wear shorts to church." It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it."
So you admit, there are no verses that tell us about shorts or pants, or sandals or shoes. Therefore, everything else you say on the subject is your opinion, not a scriptural mandate. The arguement ends here. You need to realize your wrong and go buy some flip flops at Old Navy. I will not post anything further here on this sunject.
~Brian
________________________________________________
There you have it. As you see, Brian likes to use the "hit and run" tactics for his arguments. He uses the fact that the words "shorts" and "flip-flops" are not in the Bible as a reason to have his beliefs. He refuses to answer any of my question I have posed to him, yet I have answered all of his. To me, this shows one is not confident with his position. The whole issue is about respect and reverence, which I left on his blog, but he erased the Bible verses I quoted which support my beliefs. We are to show God "reverence" in our worship. I do not believe we are very reverent if we come to church in clothing we wouldn't even wear to a courtroom. I find this to be very disrespectful to God and our brothers and sisters in Christ at church. It is a form of selfishness and laziness. But, at the ripe old age of 32, I could just be an old fogie...
So please let me know what you think!!!
posted by Pastor Jim | 8:58 PM
18 Comments:
I don't think there is a dress code in the church that I go to,
but I try to dress nice ,
Ooooh PJ, I'm gonna have to go with Brian on this one, although I think the entire exchange got a bit out of hand. I used to be pretty judgmental on the subject of dress, then God opened my eyes to myself. There are a lot of man-made traditions in the church, which have become tools to judge people, and get them to conform. Truth is, most are not rooted in biblical doctrine at all.
The Bible is silent on the 'proper' attire for attending church in a 21st century building. Hebrews 10:25 says, ...not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
We are admonished to not forsake assembling together - and 'church' can be in a building designated as such, or it can be in a home - anywhere, actually. The church building is not where God resides; He lives in the hearts of Believers. And where two or three are gathered in His name, He is there. (Matthew 18:20)
Please don't get into a legalistic state of mind by equating respect with attire. There is no correlation.
The Word says the world will know us by our love and by our fruit. Suits, skirts, hats, etc, are not mentioned as fruit of any kind. :)
We are not to judge according to appearance (John 7:24), but judge according to righteousness.
Same goes with music, IMO. Instruments/no instruments, it doesn't really matter. In the OT, lyres, tambourines were used.
I would encourage you to search the Scriptures and seek God on this one. The Holy Spirit will convict w/o condemning, if need be, and He will lead you into all truth.
Oh wanted to also add, PJ - don't equate reverence for God with attire either. We revere Him in our hearts and in our actions, not in our manner of dress.
Jim:
I am an "old fogie" at the ripe old age of 48. Since I read the Fide-O blog most every day, I caught the "dialog" between you and Brian. I don't know you or Brian, but from the tone of Brian's comments, I felt like he was coming more from a "you're not the boss of me" angle than anything else.
He is correct in saying that the Bible no where states thou shalt not wear flip flops, but I think a person could/can ascertain that God has prescribed certain attitudes and actions when it comes to worship. I don't see "Come let us worship and bow down" (Ps 95:6) as a command to a particular posture during worship; rather, I think it calls for an attitude of reverence and awe toward a holy God. Note Isaiah's response to his vision of God in Isaiah 6. Worship today (in many churches) is flippant, not God honoring and more of a concert than a worship service. God is not our "homeboy" or our peer. He is the Almighty Creator of the Universe and should be approached, worshiped, and referred to in a "holy", reverent manner.
I used to attend a church that was very casual in their worship. One of the Elders came into a Sunday morning worship once, wearing sandals, t-shirt, shorts, and carrying his mega-coffee cup, which he drank from throughout the service. I know he owns a suit because he is a funeral home director. I found it odd that he could dress up a funeral (his job), but he couldn't /wouldn't/didn't for church. There was a "casualness" throughout that entire church. They were lax in their doctrine, their worship, their Sunday School material, etc. The childrens' worship area was dominated by a huge pirate ship from which the youth minister (dressed in full pirate garb) "taught" the Bible lesson each week. The parrot on his shoulder was a nice touch. I never did get the connection between the Bible and pirate ship theme.
The church we now attend takes a more serious view of Scripture, the importance of the reading of God's Word in the services, expository preaching and teaching in our Sunday School classes, etc. We don't have a dress code per se, but I've noticed that regardless of what people are wearing, it seems that they've not just run out of the house wearing any old thing they found in the closet. Some wear suits and ties (all of our Pastoral Staff for sure), some wear business casual, some jeans; women wear dresses, some wear slacks/pantsuits. But the overall "appearance/attitude" is "I've dressed up for church—to come and worship, to bow down before the Lord, my Maker.
I guess what I'm saying is that I think you have the right idea. If there is nothing different about the way we approach and/or prepare for worship from attending a rock concert, etc., then why bother? On his own blog, Brian admits that he makes a conscious decision regarding what he wears to a wedding or funeral: "The people who are getting married expect you to "dress up"...God has set no such requirements."
I have had this same discussion with a woman at my work who insists that "God looks at my heart" not what I wear to church. Her children dress like street thugs, complete with multiple piercings and tattoos. Their language is vulgar. She wears clothing that is not modest – exposing WAY more of her than I care to see and she smokes. (I KNOW; we could have an entirely different conversation re: these things, but we won't). My point? Her husband is the MUSIC MINISTER at their church!!! She may not care what she wears and or does. She may think that God doesn't care (maybe He doesn't), but I know that when we were looking for a new church…"her's" was NOT one that we considered.
I think church/worship is a pretty serious thing. Just ask Ananias and Sapphira.
(I apologize for rambling)
Jel, thank you for your comment. Its the same with the churches I have attended in my life. We have never had a dress code because we didn't need one.
Gayla, again I appreciate you stopping by and stating your view. I respect it and value it. I agree "church" could be any place we gather to worship God, but that being the case I think he should still be honored in every way, including our dress. I also know not to judge others so if all a person has is shorts, then it is better to come to church in shorts, than not come at all. Again, thanks for your comments, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, though.
Keith, thanks for your first ever comment here! I think we pretty much have all the same feelings on this one. Maybe we are a dying breed, who knows? I hope not. I enjoyed your stories, please feel free to "ramble" on whenever you like. Oh, about the mega-coffee, we actually asked people to stop bringing in drinks at a church I attended a few years ago. It actually is a distraction when you are trying to listen to the lesson and all you hear is the straw squeaking or a person slurping. Again, I find this disrespectful as well.
It's fine, PJ. Throughout the time we've known one another here on the blogosphere, I've noticed we're in agreement more than disagreement. :) In the whole scheme of things, this is really a non-issue.
A few questions, though:
Is proper/reverent/respectful/worshipful attire limited to a 'church building' only, or does this type of dress apply to encountering God at home? Or at Starbucks? In the park? At a friend's house?
Would it be necessary to change into more "God-honoring" clothing to 'worship' God in a setting other than a church building?
What are your thoughts about a person you might see at church who is not 'properly' attired? Do you think they're disrespecting God? Not honoring Him? (just asking cuze you may run into me at church in my blue jeans!)
Keith, sounds like the first church you describe had a bigger problem than a dress code. And really, Ananias and Sapphira have nothing whatsoever to do with a disscussion about attire.
You say that the overall attitude/appearance of your current church is one of, "I've dressed up for church..." How can that be when you stated there are those who are in blue jeans, and even women in (gulp) pants?
Gayla,
Here are my best answers...
"Is proper/reverent/respectful/worshipful attire limited to a 'church building' only, or does this type of dress apply to encountering God at home? Or at Starbucks? In the park? At a friend's house?"
I believe that if we know we are getting together to worship God as a "church worship" (ie. singing, preaching, praying, Lord's Supper, and invitation) then, yes, we should dress a little more formal than shorts and flip-flops. If it is something like a like v.b.s. with kids, then, no, we can be more casual and play games and dress according. If we are going over to someone's house for dinner with other couples from church, I like to dress in jeans and a polo, but I wouldn't have a problem with someone in shorts as long as the homeowner was o.k. with it.
"Would it be necessary to change into more "God-honoring" clothing to 'worship' God in a setting other than a church building?"
Answered with first question.
"What are your thoughts about a person you might see at church who is not 'properly' attired? Do you think they're disrespecting God? Not honoring Him? (just asking cuze you may run into me at church in my blue jeans!)"
I am glad they are at church to worship God instead of staying home. 'Properly attired' is someone who has come to church in more than their worst clothing. Jeans and tennis shoes, or women in pants is a lot better than shorts and flip-flops.
Now if you will answer a few questions of mine...
Do you wear shorts and flip-flops to church?
If not then why?
Does your pastor/preacher/reverend wear shorts and flip-flops?
If not then why?
During the Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist do the people who are distributing wear shorts and flip-flops?
If not then why?
If you answered "no" to any of these then how or why are you different than them? Or, how would you feel if they did wear shorts and flip-flops?
The real thing that bothered me about Brian's response was how proud he was of the fact that he wear's shorts and flip-flops. The discussion was about music then he chimed in with "and most of the time I wear flip-flops and shorts to church." This just proves to me that he knows this is looked down upon, but he can get away with it. Kinda like, "look at me, I'm doing the bare minimum, and you can't stop me." Like I've said several times, if the best you have is shorts and flip-flops, then by all means wear them to church. I'd be willing to bet at most churches you wouldn't be wearing them long, because people would help you out if you were that broke.
Gayla:
You are right about my previous church-- dress was the least of their problems. They didn't (still don't) have a proper view of God and His Word.
The Ananias and Sapphira comment wasn't intended to imply they weren't wearing the "right" clothes. They lied to the Holy Spirit and to Peter and God struck them dead. I was simply trying to make the point that church/worship is serious and shouldn't be approached in a flippant manner. God knew Ananias and Sapphira's hearts and that's why they were punished, not because they were wearing sandals (I assume).
As far as my "dressed up for church" comment, maybe that doesn't express what I'm trying to say. I'm not focused on what people are wearing at church. It's more of an attitude/tone/atmosphere thing for me. I think most of the people at our church understand that worship is more than just singing the songs that are printed in the bulletin. We come together to sing praises to God, to worship Him in gratitude for what He has done-- for who He is. There is an anticipation, and reverence, in the services as we sing, read Scripture together and listen to the sermon from our Pastor. And we do those things in many styles of clothing. I don't wear a suit and tie, but I wear the nicest clothes I have--some Sundays, that's a pair of jeans and a clean shirt. If I can "dress up" for a wedding or funeral (as Brian admits he does, also), I most certainly can make my best presentation for my God.
As far as someone coming to church that is not "properly attired"...are we talking about someone wearing a shirt with profanity printed on it? or just someone in shorts, t-shirt, etc.? I'm not sure what some people (maybe you) are looking for here. Do we really need a set of "rules"? Even if we had rules, someone would find it necessary to break them...that's just America (see my blog The Rules Don't Apply).
Worship/church should be a different experience from anything the world experiences or has to offer. If that means that people dress differently, is there something wrong with that? A friend once told me that his church was "a swimming pool and a tennis court away from being a country club." Incidently, his church is the one I left.
Just my thoughts...
PJ
the church that go to is a little country church, and most are farmers, so there are some who wear overall, blue jeans, and some wear suits, our pastor, preached on this last sunday! and he said that God doesn't worries about what your look like or what you wear, it's your heart that God cares for! how does your heart look like! That's all that really matters here!
"Do you wear shorts and flip-flops to church?"
Shorts, no. Because I'm 47 and I don't wear shorts out in public much anymore, period. :) In the summer I usually wear denim capri's (with sandals or open-toed sandals) Flip-flops, yes. But I never wear the rubber, beach-looking kind of flip-flops anyway. I wear 'cute, stylish' flip flops and or sandals. But I do wear them to church.
"Does your pastor/preacher/reverend wear shorts and flip-flops?"
I've never seen my pastor in anything other than long jeans. No flip-flops. He wears tennis shoes. No shorts.
"During the Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist do the people who are distributing wear shorts and flip-flops?"
To be quite honest with you, I have never taken notice of what the communion distributors have ever worn.
"If you answered "no" to any of these then how or why are you different than them? Or, how would you feel if they did wear shorts and flip-flops?"
I'm not sure know what you mean by how or why I'm different from them. I wouldn't think I'm really any different from them.
Truthfully, I couldn't care less what they wear. I don't know any of the communion distributors personally, but I do know the pastor. He is a godly man, who consistently teaches/preaches good, solid biblical truth and doctrine. He loves the Lord and wants nothing more than to conduct himself in a manner worthy of a Christian.
"I am glad they are at church to worship God instead of staying home. 'Properly attired' is someone who has come to church in more than their worst clothing. Jeans and tennis shoes, or women in pants is a lot better than shorts and flip-flops."
See, this is the thing. 'You' have made the (very personal)definition of what constitutes proper dress. In your opinion, which by the way, is not rooted in Scripture, jeans, tennis shoes or pants for women is 'okay.' Shorts/flip-flops are not. There are a number of other folks who believe that women in pants are of the devil. And Jeans/tennis shoes should NEVER be worn to church. Who's right?????
Answer: neither.
'You' believe there is a correlation between attire and respect/worship/reverence - as if what kind of clothes a person wears has one whit to do with the attitude of one's heart. But that opinion, again, is not scripturally based.
Keith, I totally agree with you that worship is a serious matter, not to be entered into flippantly. No doubt about that.
I simply wonder why you and my good friend, PJ, think people are not sincere or respectful or reverent in their worship if they do so in flip-flops??????
And I wonder why there is such a concern over what people wear. If we are in a corporate worship setting, then we should be worshipping, not even noticing what other people have on!
Gayla, you wrote: I simply wonder why you and my good friend, PJ, think people are not sincere or respectful or reverent in their worship if they do so in flip-flops??????. I have read back through my comments and I don't see anywhere that I've condemned or condoned "flip-flops." Truth be told, my wife --gasp!-- wore flip-flops to church last week. I'm just asking questions, and "listening" to responses. I am not advocating a set of rules for the congregation. Again, I think that the whole thing is about "attitude." I got the sense that Brian was more interested in boasting about his attire and talking down to Jim that he was in having an "adult" dialog. I DO think there is a line in dress that should never be crossed when attending corporate worship services (really, I think most of these should be everyday rules but then I'm an old fogie, remember), i.e. no profanity/tasteless images on shirts (I've seen it happen), braless tank tops/spaghetti straps, shorts/skirts/pants that expose underwear or "body parts", etc.
You said: If we are in a corporate worship setting, then we should be worshipping, not even noticing what other people have on! I agree with your thought, but honestly, wouldn't you find it a little distracting to be staring down the backside of someone's thong panties throughout the entire service? There has to be some level of decorum, otherwise, why don't we just meet for Bible study at the local Hooters? BTW, I DO have a "set of rules" for myself and they do not include wearing a suit and tie every week.
An curious observation about myself-- I attended a funeral last week and wore a jacket and tie. The next day, being a Sunday, I wore Dockers and a button-down shirt. I find it somewhat odd (and I include myself here), that we make a big "to-do" over Sunday morning, but Sunday and Wednesday evenings take on a more casual atmosphere. What are we doing different at those services from the Sunday AM?
Gayla, you say...
"See, this is the thing. 'You' have made the (very personal)definition of what constitutes proper dress."
I never said any such thing. I said, "'Properly attired' is someone who has come to church in more than their worst clothing." You asked me a question, and I answered it. I said you should attend church in "more than their worst clothing." Do you think it is "proper" to attend church in your worst attire?
"'You' believe there is a correlation between attire and respect/worship/reverence - as if what kind of clothes a person wears has one whit to do with the attitude of one's heart."
If a conscious effort is made to wear your worst clothes to church, then yes, there is a correlation between attire and respect/worship/reverence. I do not claim to know what is in everyone's closet, but they know. If their very best clothes are shorts, then, as I've said numerous times before, wear them. Also, as Keith asks, where do you, Gayla, draw the line? Is a shirt with something obscene on it o.k.?
I just come from the "old school" I guess. If I think something might be disrespectful to just one person who might see me, then I won't wear it. I don't even go barefoot in anyone's house but my own, because culturally it is disrespectful. Yes, I wear sandals (quite frequently), but not to a place where I will be taking my shoes off, because then that will leave me barefoot. I think ahead. I always think about other people. Maybe I have issues, but they are issues I am actually proud to have.
Keith, I apologize; apparently I misunderstood where you were coming from.
"I find it somewhat odd (and I include myself here), that we make a big "to-do" over Sunday morning, but Sunday and Wednesday evenings take on a more casual atmosphere. What are we doing different at those services from the Sunday AM?"
I think it's a matter of tradition is all.
PJ, maybe we're really sorta trackin' along the same lines. But we need to make a clarification...are you equating one's 'worst' clothes with flip-flops????
Because I can certainly agree that people probably shouldn't wear their 'worst' clothes to church, or even to the movies for that matter.
I don't wear to church the same kind of clothing I wear when I'm working in the yard. Plus, I wouldn't wear a shirt with something obscene on it in the yard or anywhere else either.
The converstation has kind of evolved into another direction, as I see it. Obscenity on clothing, IMO, is inappropriate, period. BUT, if someone walked into church with something obscene on a shirt, I'm sure my gut reaction would be one of shock. I probably would think that perhaps they hadn't entered into a personal relationship with God yet.
As with any of our sins or struggles, I would think that maybe they hadn't yet matured in the faith. Of course I'd be speculating until I actually had a conversation with said person. God brings us along all at different paces.
How would you know, PJ, if anything you wore might be offensive to someone? Do you wear khakis? There could be someone out there who is offended by khakis.
I guess I'm just trying to point out that there is quite a difference between personal tastes and those tastes having anything to do with reverence or respect for God in worship.
It is your personal preference (and not a wrong one) to not go barefoot in other people's homes. But take us on the other hand. We have a rather light colored carpet, and everyone takes off their shoes at my house! For maximum carpet preservation. :-) And we're just very casual in our home.
But neither one of us is wrong. Neither one of us is in sin. So it is with clothing.
Thanks for your responses, Gayla. I won't keep dragging this on, but let me just point out a few final things...
"PJ, maybe we're really sorta trackin' along the same lines. But we need to make a clarification...are you equating one's 'worst' clothes with flip-flops????"
As far as shoes on men, yes.
"Because I can certainly agree that people probably shouldn't wear their 'worst' clothes to church, or even to the movies for that matter."
We agree here.
"I don't wear to church the same kind of clothing I wear when I'm working in the yard."
This is the point I am trying to make here. Shorts and flip-flops are something most people would wear to do yard work in.
"As with any of our sins or struggles, I would think that maybe they hadn't yet matured in the faith. Of course I'd be speculating until I actually had a conversation with said person. God brings us along all at different paces."
This is exactly how I would feel about someone coming into church in shorts and flip-flops. Would you feel the same way if the person came in wearing clothes they did their yard work in? If not, then why won't you wear those clothes?
"I guess I'm just trying to point out that there is quite a difference between personal tastes and those tastes having anything to do with reverence or respect for God in worship."
Would you say lack of reverence or respect would stem from someone who "hadn't yet matured in the faith?" This is where we disagree. I think it has everything to do with someone's attitude towards God if they come to church dressed "inappropriately." I would venture to say this is why you do not attend church in your yard work clothes.
For the record, by barefoot, I meant sockless. I take my shoes off at everyone's house, unless they prefer me to keep them on.
Also, as far as flip-flops on women; there are many business casual to formal women's shoes which are open toed. There are not to many men's shoes that are business casual to formal with open toes. By flip-flops I mean the traditional rubber soul with a strap between the toes. Many women's sandals are close to being flip-flops but are made to wear with a more formal outfit.
One more little side-note...For maximum protection on your carpet; WEAR SOCKS!!! The oils from your feet make the carpet look bad faster. I sold carpet for 7 years.
I agree with Gayla mostly. God doesn't care if I wear flip flops. In fact, I am wearing them right now and am going to wear them to church tonight.
IT DOESN"T MATTER ONE BIT! THERE IS NO BIBLICAL PRECEDENT FOR DRESS UNDER THE NEW COVENANT.
~Brian
Gayla, good comments.
Thank you, Brian. :)
PJ, I hadn't been in here in several days, so I just now read your latest comment.
First you crack me up - I know we should be wearing socks as opposed to foot nakedness. :) But for 'whatever' reason we've just always gone barefoot in the house.
I guess we just disagree on what constitutes one's 'worst clothes' and/or 'inappropriate' dress.
There are men's flip flops, ya know, that are leather and/or canvass etc, that are nicer than your run-of-the-mill rubber thongs. And I think they're just fine with shorts.
And I guess we just disagree on attire = level of reverence for God. For me, not wearing yard clothes to church has nothing to do with reverence for God. It has everything to do with how I feel comfortable dressing in public - ANY public place, and that includes church.
I just want to encourage you, once again, to be cautious in making judgments on how someone is dressed. Because truly, you don't (and can't) know the condition of a person's heart before God. Just as they don't know yours.
I think you make some valid points, but some are simply not grounded in Scripture.
Whenever a Christian uses the phrase it is common sense or comes from a total understanding of the bible as a whole it usually means he has lost the argument and has no leg to stand on.
Christians for the most part arent inclusive of anyone that isnt exactly like them. That is why the churches role in society continues to dwindle.
And that pirate ship lesson probably actually got through to more kids in one week than all the musicless judgemental rigid churches put together.
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