To be, or not to be?
Mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Kind of like saying...
Whoever opens the book and reads every verse will finish the Bible, but whoever does not open the book will never finish.
God gave us the command to be baptized for a reason. Not just to hear himself talk!!! Who are we to pick and choose which of God's commands we should abide by???
Kind of like saying...
Whoever opens the book and reads every verse will finish the Bible, but whoever does not open the book will never finish.
God gave us the command to be baptized for a reason. Not just to hear himself talk!!! Who are we to pick and choose which of God's commands we should abide by???
posted by Pastor Jim | 6:06 PM
44 Comments:
That is something to think about, was that, out of curiosity, is this something he said before or after Jesus died on the cross? I have been baptized, it was incredible and our church dose baptize but im wondering wether it was something said before we had the blood of christ? Again dont think im arguing i honestly dont know!
It was after He had risen.
Oh, cool, thankyou!
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Another question! Sorry, I am just so in love with Jesus and I want to know him. However, Jesus told the thief on the cross, "This day you shall be with me in paradise." He was not baptized. He was accepted. Im wondering about that?
Please dont think of me as argumentative becuase I am not, and I take authority very seriously and I assume you are older than I am so I do respect you and that possision but I am wondering how that ties into what you said?
Cheatwoods, a civilized chat is well appreciated. I don't claim to know everything. I'll say that first and foremost. As far as the man on the cross. We do not know if he was ever baptized or not. That is just an assumption. I don't like to risk my eternity on an assumption. If the man wasn't baptized, God can do whatever He pleases. I won't say that all non-baptized people will go to hell. My grandparents were not baptized, and I hope they are in Heaven, but I don't know. All we have to go by is what God says, and He says we should be baptized!
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David, are we not to repent after baptism? Do you understand what repent means? When we sin after we are baptized what are we to do? Just say to ourselves, "oh well, God has already forgiven me, so be it." That is what you might do, but it is not what God has told us to do. I do not hold much stock in what comes out of your mouth. Your christian maturity level is quite obvious since you have no problem with using bad language (just to fill you in, cheatwoods, he used profanity on another site). Again, you have no proof to show the man was not already baptized. You are just assuming.
The order actaully goes...
1) hear the word
2) believe the word
3) repent of your sins
4) confess that Jesus is the Son of God
5) be baptized
So, by your rationale, or lack of, since the man can no longer repent after he was baptized, then we can no longer hear the word after we are baptized, right??? You speak with little or no knowledge of what you try to argue. Your entire reason to be in the blogworld is to "argue." If that is all you want to do here, just leave. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, make sure you actually have something intelligent to say.
HUmm, I agree with your order Pator Jim, but I still repent of things that I need to repent of in my life, is that bad. Or are you talking in a general giving life to Jesus and repent of sins kind of repentance?
The kind Im talking about that I do now in my life is being angry or being pridefull, things I struggle with. Those are different kind of repentance right?? Becuase I know im not expected to be perfect and never sin again. There would be no reason for Jesus if that was the case. Even tho I do try so hard to please God by not sinning, I still struggle with that stinken sin nature! But im so glad for Gods grace on me!
Cheatwoods, I was just letting david know that his comment didn't make any sense. Of course we are to repent of our sins after we are baptized. David was saying the man repented, therefore his baptism would have to come after his repentance. Just to make it clear, YES, we are still to repent of our sins!
As far as different kinds of repentance...I believe to repent means to repent. I don't see there to be different kinds of repentance.
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David, you say...
"And Jim, please. I always come to you with well-reasoned arguments backed up by scripture. You respond by saying that I'm not intelligent, or disrespectful, or immature in my faith. I've never called you names or attacked you like that."
I have yet to see a "well-reasoned" argument. I have only seen one scripture from you. I haven't said you were unintelligent, I said the arguments you make are ignorant. You have shown your disrespect and immature faith by using profanity in a previous discussion. Do you think it is ok to cuss? Or, do you think it shows respect to cuss at someone? I have not called you names or "attacked" you in any way. AGAIN, if you come here with INTELLIGENT, WELL-THOUGHT-OUT, SCRIPTURAL points, then you will be heard. If not, don't bother commenting on here because your comments will be deleted without response!!!!!
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David, you ask, "Where did I cuss?"
Here is your quote from Brian's blog...
"He, like you, was bitching about 'kids these days' and how we 'have no respect for the house of the Lord'. Total, utter, chicken crap."
You are so lost in your own "I'm the boss of me" world, you don't even realize when you cuss. You have that LITTLE respect for God!!!
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David, first off, I talked about shorts and flip-flops. No where did I say anything about a t-shirt and jeans.
Secondly, I really don't need to reply on your language. You said it all. You are so saturated with foul lyriced music that you don't even know what is wrong or right!
It is my job to judge! God tells me I am not supposed to associate with certain people. How am I suppose to know who these people are if I do not judge character? Again, you just throw around a verse here and a verse there to try to make yourself comfortable with your chosen lifestyle. Quit trying to prove to yourself that you are right! Worry about what God thinks, not you!!!
David, when did it become "culturaly" acceptable to just make a curse word a VERB and then it is no longer a curse word? Why do you feel you can use different words around your peers than children??? With the exception of talking about sex before a child is old enough, we should not have to watch what we say around children unless we are using profanity!
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
"14) Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15) What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16) What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17) "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." 18) "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Psalm 1:1
"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers."
1 Corinthians 15:33,34
"33) Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34) Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame."
Romans 1:28-32
"28) Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29) They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30) slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31) they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32) Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
hummm I would say CHicken Crap, is that really a bad word?
Iv watched some rated R movies that have some BAD words in them. I have to actully turn them off or not watch them becuase of language like that.
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"If movies you say cause you to speak words that offend people around you and portray Jesus in a poor light, then don't watch them. If you can handle watching movies with foul language without emulating them, then it's OK."
Obviously, David, you can't handle watching movies or listening to music with bad language without offending people. Do you hear yourself??? Talk about a hypocrite!!!!!!!!
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Again I dont want to be argumentative, however in Romans 10 :9-10 it says
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
That dosent say anthing about water baptiszum. I do see it as important but I dont see that it is crusial to our salvation, I see that believeing in Jesus is.
David, I have nothing more to say to you except you have shown enough of your disrespect. You are no longer welcomed here.
Cheatwoods, yes, you are looking to argue. Enough of the whole poor-ole-innocent-me attitude. You have shown you are not interested in learning by your very first comment. Asking me when the verse was said, why didn't you just look it up yourself? That is the best way to learn. You lost all credibility with the "hummm I would say CHicken Crap, is that really a bad word.." comment. Again, it is obvious you want to play games and not see the real issues! By your last verse you quoted, it would be by confessing instead of believing that you would be saved..."and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved..." So, as you point out yourself there is more to salvation than just believing. If you keep up the childish games, you too will no longer be welcomed here either!
oh goodness, I actully had it on my heart so I found Romans 10 9-10 and I would have to say that I hope your not a real pastor. I never tired a ho hum, I didnt want to argue, but I have a problem when you say people are going to hell if they dont get dunked in water them. Besides the verse water. You gave usa verse that said "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
It says whoever dosent believe well be condemned, not whoever dosent believe and isnt baptized is condemned.
I am extrememly offendid by you right now, you obviously dont want people to know the truth, you want to condemn them. Im sorry for respondint to your post and taking an interest in what you have to say. This well be the last.
David, I do think he has talked to you unfairly BTW. I think that if you and I werent already saved he would have turned us off, becuase he is not out to see people saved.
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Cheatwoods, did you totally miss the entire point of the original post about the verse??? Hello! I stand by my statement that you were just trying to play games....see ya!
Brian, I have explained multiple times that my name is not Jim and that I am not a pastor, so you have no point.
Good luck to you three living your lives the way YOU want to instead of the GOD wants you to!!!
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Wow, Jim! I won't resort to name-calling, but I'm trying to figure out what has got you so upset?! I think Cheatwoods was really trying to understand some things and you were pretty harsh. Maybe she hasn't been a Christian very long-- I don't know. How about giving her the benefit of the doubt.
As far as your dialogs with David and Brian, I'm really at a loss as to why you keep going/coming back to the same discussion(s). They obviously don't agree with you and, more than likely, never will (they have that right whether you, I or anyone else agrees with them). No need to get so upset. For someone that goes by the screen name of "Pastor Jim"(I take it that's what it is), the harshness of your comments don't come across as very "pastoral." Just an observation from someone that reads your blog from time to time.
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Keith, did you not read the entire dialogue??? I did nothing except explain to david that his use of profanity showed his spiritual immaturaty. He said I was "bitching." Do you believe this is a cuss word? Then Cheatwoods, chimes in with "chicken crap is not that bad." Come on!!! You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see she was trying to play games. Then brian shows his maturity by calling me a "jerk" and an "ass." You have the audacity to say I'm being harsh?!? I have called no one names. I have told three people that I do not appreciate their attitudes on MY SITE. One is not sincere with her comments (cheatwoods). Two are immature and like to call people names (david and brian). Even you have said brian has a "you're not the boss of me attitude." Did I come on your blog and tell you that you are a bit over the top?
"...the harshness of your comments don't come across as very 'pastoral.'"
Matthew 21:12
"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves."
I guess Jesus was not very "pastoral?"
I'm not comparing myself to Jesus (I've even said repeatedly that I am not a pastor), but there comes a time when you have to stand up for what you believe and let people know when they are wrong. That is what is wrong with most so-called christians, they have no back bone and don't want to step on anybody's toes.
I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, but here goes:
1. Yes, I read the entire blog.
2. I don't use nor condone the use of profanity. My definition and your's may not be the same (I place words like h*** and d*** in this category).
3. I agree that David and Brian used some words that I am not comfortable with. As a rule of thumb, I try to refrain from using words that I would not use in everyday conversation with my Pastor. I must admit that I have used the word "crap."
4. My comment about your being "harsh" was specific to your response to Cheatwoods. I know that she is a young mother and (again) she may not be aware of some things that you and I take for granted. I just thought you might take that tact and explain things to her, i.e. explain a passage such as Ephesians 4:29 ...do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths... Why not take the opportunity to help a younger believer is my thought.
5. My comment re: "name-calling" was not aimed at you, but rather other posters. It was more of a "promise" not to call you names. Sorry you took it the wrong way. I was actually trying to be nice.
6. I read Brian's blog. He's a little "edgy" for me at times. Frankly I think he gets a kick out of rattling your cage more than anything.
7. No, Jesus wasn't acting "pastorally", but then He is God--He can act however He wants or the circumstances requires.
8. I'm all for standing up. Done it a few times myself. I've done it well (God's grace and power of the Holy Spirit) and I've done it badly (my own effort and anger coming out)...and Lord willing, I'll do it again.
9. If you don't mind--could you explain the "Pastor Jim" screen name? I'm just curious. I get the impression this is something you may have already covered with Brian, but I wasn't privey to that "conversation."
10. I apologize if I made you mad. It wasn't intentional.
I think this is funny. The entire point I was making with Cheatwoods is that "crap" is not the word I was referring to. It was "bitching." She looked over the word "bitching" (knowing that is the word I was talking about) and said, "crap is not that bad."
You are not making me mad. Nobody on the internet has the ability to make me mad. I don't know any of you. You could all be satanists for all I know. What I do have the ability to do is tell you not to comment on my site anymore. Its not because I am mad. It is because the person has shown that they are not here for a conversation. They are just here to show disrespect and a lack of maturity.
As far as "Pastor Jim" goes...When I first found out about blogging I would have long debates with Angel Anthony. We would go on and on about catholicism. You can read some of my early posts if you care to. I was always anonymous since I didn't have a blog, so Anthony kept calling me "Pastor Jim" because of my disagreements with him. I do not like to give any personal information out to random people on the internet, so I went with the name Anthony gave me. I was known by "Pastor Jim" on quite a few other blogs before I even started my own blog. So, that is the history of "Pastor Jim." I am not a pastor, nor is my name Jim!
So, Keith, you did not make me mad. David, Brian, and Cheatwoods have not made me mad. It is just my parogative to talk and listen to whomever I please. I have no problems with you, Keith, but to me it is pretty obvious what the other three are all about. I know you are friends with Cheatwoods, but give me your honest opinion here...
1) She takes the time to ask me when the verse was in connection with Jesus' death. Would YOU ask me that, or would YOU look it up yourself and make whatever point you wanted to make???
2) I then give David's quote of, ""He, like you, was bitching about 'kids these days' and how we 'have no respect for the house of the Lord'. Total, utter, chicken crap."
Now, reading that quote, what would YOU think is the profanity I am talking about??? Would YOU think I was talking about "crap" or "bitching???" Cheatwoods came back with, "hummm I would say CHicken Crap, is that really a bad word?" Do YOU think she was really being sincere here???
3) She, then, finally gets around to saying what she wanted to say initially. She wanted to argue the point of baptism. That is fine. Pretty much all we do on here is debate or argue. We don't beat around the bush, though. Don't try to act like you are not arguing, when in reality, that is exactly what she wanted to do.
Honestly, I just had more questions. Thats why i kept bringing it up. I canot quote Davids words because you deleted it but he did mention the word Chicken Crap, that is why I said it. I think its good to have questions, call me crazy!
Thankyou Keith!
I must be a glutton for punishment, but here goes (responding specifically to your questions):
1) I would have looked up the verse myself (I've taught Sunday School for over 20 years, so I've probably got a few more "resources" at my disposal than others...and that's just the way I think--if I want to know it, I just look it up.)
I honestly didn't read anything into whether Cheatwoods looked up the verse or not. Maybe it didn't occur to her to do that. Maybe she thought you would have that answer at your fingertips more readily than she. Who knows. At least she asked. I work in an office of predominantly non-Christians. I'm thrilled when any of them ask even ONE QUESTION re: spiritual things.
2) Honestly, when I read the quote, I didn't think of the words as "profanity." Maybe I'm making too little of a distinction between "profane" vs. "off color." The two words/phrases seemed off color for a statement re: the "house of the Lord"-- I don't think I would have phrased it that way, but then maybe I'm too lenient. I will certainly give that some thought.
I couldn't begin to tell what Cheatwoods was thinking.
3) It appears that you were the one starting the "argument" with your original post. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, you are implying that those who are not baptized are not saved. (Did you not want anyone to respond?)
I would question anyone that claims to believe, but refuses to be baptized. However, there are so many places in Scripture where baptism is NOT mentioned, I don't believe that baptism is the mechanism that brings salvation. Paul said: "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor 1:17) I have a hard time believing that if baptism was essential to salvation, Paul would have made such a comment. I do believe that baptism is a Holy Spirt inspired/empowered, public declaration of what has already been done in one's heart. I attended a church for 18 years that taught "baptismal regeneration" so I've heard both sides of the argument. My "Calvinist" leanings have brought me to the belief I hold today.
It looked to me like Cheatwoods was simply giving you her opinion, as I have done above. Both "sides" can be defended from Scripture. No one is advocaing DON'T BE BAPTIZED. So I guess the discussion is: "what is baptism's role in salvation." I don't think you'll ever get everyone to agree on that one, but it's an interesting topic. One thing to note: whether you believe it is essential/part of the salvation "process" or simply an act of obedience, the fact still remains is that SALVATION has taken place. That is cause for praise, however you or I think it occured.
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Keith, thank you for your responses. I said I didn't have a problem if Cheatwoods wanted to "argue" her points. The problem I had, is that she did have an agenda when she started her conversation, yet she kept saying she wasn't trying to argue. I just expect people to call it like it is. I know people have different beliefs on baptism. I expected people to comment, but no one has said why we shouldn't be baptized since God told us to be baptized.
brian, you can cuss all you want on your own blog.
Hey Jim, I think we just agreed on something...there is NO reason for someone NOT to baptized.
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your a smart man Keith! And very wise!
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I dont know ask every single christian who does it and then quantifies it by saying thats not what it meant or that we arent perfect just forgiven.
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